Re: <nettime> Fascist "trolls," meta

[jan hendrik brueggemeier <jan@neture.org>]

Dear list -

just to reiterate: AB was an alt-right hack of nettime? times certainly
are changing ... (apologies for the slow response).

i did find one website that mentioned his membership of Medborgerlig
Samling (Med) or Citizens' Coalition. i lack swedish language and
context understanding to get a clearer grasp (maybe someone else can
shed more light on them) - they seem definitely anti-immigration.
however, i would not have expected such political allegiance and it does
change things (at least in my mind).

as many hacks exploiting vulnerabilities does not need to be very
sophisticated to be efficient -- and i perfectly match the nettime
demographic being white, male, euro background, which seems to be one of
the "vulnerabilities" that was aimed for. some of of the "defense"
seemed IMHO also not very sophisticated, but that shouldn't really weigh
in much as i am 1) part of the demographic lens that has been exploited
in this hack and 2) the end result is what matters in the end. another
vulnerability may be (certainly on my end) complacency in this regard
i'd not would have expected to encounter alt-right "gedankengut" (ideas)
on nettime. so times definitely have changed in this matter.

in which way the engaging in this discussion was an act of assisting
with either the refinement of the language of the enemy and / or
recruiting, i find this hard to gauge as this is something which is more
likely to happen off-list and there were plenty of critique on-list -
but it did provide airtime for a week or more, which is a concern ...
but it did get addressed in the end.

ted mentioned many failings of nettime but ab trolling would not be one
of them and i would share his view. as every hack is an opportunity for
strengthening - what would that strengthening for the discussion culture
mean -- or is it about enjoying (or not) the ride while the fragility of
our niche online existence lasts?

+ @ Angela, thanks for the links i started reading my way through them ...

cheers,
jan

On 7/11/18 9:31 am, Angela Mitropoulos wrote:
> As briefly as possible, responses to various threads/remarks bundled up
> below:
> 
> I've been on this list since, I think, 2003. This was the first time
> I've ever suggested someone be thrown off. As someone else noted, times
> have changed; but also, I can spot a fascist set of talking points
> because I've learned how to do that. It's a skill, learn it, it might
> save someone's life in a context where fascist trolling is also about
> inciting and legitimating violence against Jews, black people, women,
> transpeople, migrants.
> https://medium.com/@DeoTasDevil/the-rhetoric-tricks-traps-and-tactics-of-white-nationalism-b0bca3caeb84 ;
> 
> I do not need to debate fascists to know that they exist, to understand
> how they think, or to fight their influence. Including them in online
> spaces has the effect of undermining the involvement of critical voices
> in those spaces. 
> 
> I think it's an egotistical indulgence to believe one can "debunk"
> fascism. It isn't just an innocuous or discomforting idea in a
> "marketplace of ideas," but--as an idea regarding the purported
> fundamental inferiority of groups of people--an idea that pushes toward
> restructuring the space and terms of involvement in debate by destroying
> the assumption of equality.
> 
> This is the reason why antifascists have insisted on a policy of
> no-platforming. Not all trolls are fascists, but all fascists are
> trolls. Everyone lies, but fascists lie as a matter of course because it
> feeds their sense of supremacy. So, fascists will of course whisper in
> your ear about Marx, "identity politics," and "the white working class,"
> as Bannon has done (this is playbook). They are all sleaze and bullshit,
> like Trump, even if it comes wrapped in faux-high theory to flatter the
> Nettime set. On the problem of dismissing fascists as just trolls:
> https://www.vox.com/2016/11/23/13659634/alt-right-trolling ;
> 
> I think anyone who invokes Marx's name in support of a 'class first'
> position is a charlatan. I am confident in saying this because I've done
> a lot of work to be able to say it with confidence. Put another way, I'm
> prepared to wager than of the 4k subscribers to this list, I've read
> more Marx more often over many years. Those who wave Marx's name over
> reactionary positions are performing a deference to a mystical
> patriarchal authority, while at the same treating Marx's writings with
> utter disdain. I have criticisms of Marx, sure, because I treat him as a
> writer, not a cult figure. 
> 
> The practice of using black women as deflector shields to defend from
> possible criticism of racism and misogyny is a media strategy loved by
> the far Right. Ironically, it trades on the crudest kind of 'identity
> politics' by implying that if x (Candace Owens, whatever) hold a
> position then it could not possibly be racist or sexist. It's a version
> of "but I have a black female friend" defense. It is an ad hominem in
> reverse, not an argument about anything. 
> 
> I wrote this some time ago on the media's fascination with Nazi profile
> pieces: https://s0metim3s.com/2017/12/05/arendt-banality-nazism/ ;
> 
> This is a concise account of why you cannot "debunk" fascism:
> https://lithub.com/fascism-is-not-an-idea-to-be-debated-its-a-set-of-actions-to-fight/
> 
> This is on fascist creeping, a handy term imo:
> https://truthout.org/articles/exposing-and-defeating-the-fascist-creep/ ;
> 
> Another handy term is "red-brown," which refers to a reactionary impulse
> on what passes for the Left to align with fascists, and people who
> presumably think that this time around they won't be murdered in a Night
> of the Long Knives after they've served their purpose of consolidating
> support for fascism. 
> 
> I wanted to just thank some people for weighing in with clear eyes:
> Alice Yang, Flick Harrison, Ana Ulin, Ian Alan Paul, Dan Wang,
> Alessandra Renzi, Sean Smith, Ryan Griffis, Julia Röder, David Garcia,
> Nina Temporär, Frank, bronac ferran. (I may have missed some people, too
> many threads etc, apologies if I have)
> 
> And, Ted, finally, thanks for moving on it. 
> 
> best, 
> Angela 
> 
> 
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